I would replace rather than reuse. Give your cabinets a permanent face-lift and transform them like new in just 3-5 days. I am very satisfied with the work that Kitchen Magic provided. I needed something strong for building. Although we made many changes, additions and adjustments, and went back and forth with one another, you could not have been more agreeable and accommodating to work with. I’m an Industrial design student and i’m working on a project abt bending MDF. 2. I’m not sure how strong or duratible it would be so he suggested ACX sanded plywood. That will keep it from bowing and will also give your edges a finished look. They have a kind of striped effect (you’d like them!) How do larger pieces (like your new console table) hold up with glue and brad nails? Solve your kitchen organizational problems with cabinet storage upgrade options. Thanks!! Here you can see the visible difference between particle board and MDF, with MDF on the top and particle board on the bottom. Wondering if your cabinets are reface-able? Can we paste Decorative Laminate (1mm) easily on MDF? You’d just then have to consider how messy you are in the kitchen, and how likely you are to have big spills that seep under the cabinets. For this project, I needed something that I could use my jigsaw on to cut out a detailed, scalloped design. It has absolutely no voids, and the layers of veneers are all the same thickness, so the edges are often left exposed. Plywood is stainable, where MDF is not. While most plywood does contain urea-formaldehyde and other VOCs, it is now possible to purchase plywood without formaldehyde. Xuan Ixtop. You can stain MDF with either oil or water-based stain, but it’s not pretty. 2. I am making closet cabinets, connecting the face frame to the sides using a glued tongue and groove joint. Thanks for writing it in such easy-to-understand manner. The shelving is going to be very deep ( 32 ” deep by 24 ” w) I don’t have to build the shelves to be as deep as the space but storage is always needed so why not use all the space, right? Looks great! Yes, I think MDF would work just fine for a project like that. I want to build sliding closet doors. Websites that are selling have said they use mdf . I personally think that’s fine. Even though you’re using chalk paint, one of the great things about Zinsser primer is that you can put a couple of coats on, let it dry thoroughly, and then use fine sandpaper (220-grit) to sand it very smoothly. Also because of its smoothness, MDF is a great substrate for veneer. Krista. For tutoring please call 856.777.0840 I am a recently retired registered nurse who helps nursing students pass their NCLEX. I imagine it will be handy to hold on to it for now until you get your foundation fixed and once you get it finished and sold move into the house for good. This can be done with iron-on edge banding or with pieces of lumber or decorative molding. I hate going into Home Depot and feeling like an idiot. MDF is an engineered wood composite that is similar to particle board, but is much denser and stronger than particle board. Cabinet refacing, also known in the industry as cabinet resurfacing, lets you keep your existing kitchen intact while completely transforming its appearance. On a flip I did in San Antonio, I used MDF for the floor and door trim. Want taller cabinets? Contacting Kitchen Magic to do our kitchen refacing was the best decision we could have made. It holds screws very tightly since the varying grains of wood on each layer give the screws something to hold onto. I am planning to buy a bedroom, actually bedroom made of MDF are little bit cheaper than solid wood, my questions are: is it good idea to buy bedroom made of MDF? Refacing and refinishing are completely different kitchen remodeling processes. Plus, it gets dinged and scarred easier than plywood. I will also be attaching material around the platform for the tent area under the bed. Even though those vertical pieces are nailed into the edges of the top, rather than supporting from underneath, It’s still very sturdy and secure since it’s nailed and glued. I do think covering it with glass is a good idea. So in general I’m trying to say why bending woods and not bending MDF so that less trees are being cut off.. Our exclusive method of refacing cabinets is conducted by experienced and certified installation professionals. She made some great suggestions and assisted us in our goal to enhance our home with a kitchen that was perfect for us. To save some money I plan on buying a sheet of wood, measure and cut up for my risers. The surface of MDF is very smooth, and you don’t have to worry about knots on the surface. I daresay that the gratitude felt by myself and many others totally grinds their small-mindedness into the ground. One other drawback is that when you cut the stuff it is very dusty and makes a big mess so be prepared to tarp off all of your existing furniture or equipment that needs to be covered before you start cutting. What an awesome site, being a DIY’er myself it is awesome to see other peoples dreams come to life. The uppers will contain three sections with shelves. Whether you already have a color in mind, or need help deciding, cabinet resurfacing affords you a variety of choices that are sure to include the perfect hue for your new kitchen. MDF is very porous, so if there’s mold on the outside, there’s probably mold spores within the MDF that can’t be cleaned off. My experience with mdf is that it dings and chips VERY easily. 7. See how you can transform your kitchen for about half the cost of new cabinetry! This was a trick question. Thanks for that informative tut. They will be primed and painted on all sides. You actually can stain MDF. Decorative. This may optionally be followed by a dash and the last two digits of the year in which the standard was adopted. Which makes sense considering the edges and designs at the top . Making the change from carpet stairs to hardwood. They would paint or stain according to the decor. Want taller cabinets? . Don’t be nervous! The dispute resolution board chair or the dispute resolution advisor complete Sections 1 ... such as 37, 43, and 48. That just makes it a little more secure. I’m using MDF for the first time on my design wall. The pictures just make it perfect. I am afraid the plywood will eventually bend. and lastly does the bedroom last? Do not use reinforcing greater than 3/16″ (4.8mm) diameter for concrete that is less than 3″ (75mm) thick. I covered the not-so-pretty edges with pieces of 1″ x 3″ lumber. Dear Twitpic Community - thank you for all the wonderful photos you have taken over the years. because the edges will splinter, and then you’re left with edges that show layers and might possibly have voids in some places. 3. Hi Kristi It's more than just a facelift. . I am planning a 9ft high painted bookcase with base doors. The only possible issue I can see with using MDF boxes in the kitchen is that kitchens see more liquids than other (non-bathroom) rooms — spills, possible plumbing leaks, etc. MDF is an engineered wood composite that is similar to particle board, but is much denser and stronger than particle board. If you have any questions regarding MDF vs. plywood, I’d be happy to answer them for you if I can! A Abrams' Law-The rule of concrete stating that with given materials, curing, and testing conditions, concrete strength is inversely related to the ratio of water to cement.Low water-to-cement ratios produce higher concrete strengths Accelerator - Chemical substance added to a concrete mix that reduces the set time by increasing the rate of hydration. Taxes Included. Would you use MDF for a project like this? Pro Pro Service Pro Officers Customer Portal Lately, I’ve had several people ask me questions about MDF. Question; That cleared up a couple of things I wanted to ask before but didn’t. I’ve only ever made small-scale items with MDF, so I’d be curious to know how well it does when it has to support more of its own weight. That stuff is unbelievably strong, with about a 15-30 minute working time. some good info., but -“Imagine if all of the sawdust was swept up from other wood product manufacturing processes” – no- imagine carefully selecting and processing wood fibres for the specific qualities needed in the final product, then pressing them together, under controlled conditions. Evidently I’m not the one with the problem. Now reading and worried that hanging rods if MDF doesn’t like screws and chips and smells may have been a bad decision! The biggest challenge was that I had to install all eight shelves before installing the left-side support or the left-footed support. I’m having a hard time envisioning what you’re talking about, but my general rule of thumb is this — either MDF or plywood can be used for any parts that are fixed (i.e., won’t move), like the actual cabinet boxes. Thank you! It’s possible, but it’s not pretty. And the edges sand smoothly as well. Under normal kitchen use and conditions, you can expect to enjoy up to 20 years. It comes in different thicknesses, but is usually just available in 69″X 60″ sheets. You might try using Zinsser primer on it first. The transformation is finally completed with your choice of new hinges, knobs and/or pulls, and molding. Enter your address to find the closest store or search by province, city or store name I SO don’t want to work on the condo. Because it’s composed of such small wood fibers, there’s no wood grain in MDF. Uh oh…. It is more like layers of brown paper glued together. Plywood will often splinter on the edges when cut, so it’s harder to get a smooth cut with plywood than it is with MDF.   I actually used MDF on this project, but plywood would have been perfectly acceptable, and actually it would have been preferable. The refacing process should be done by certified professional and is not for the average DIY homeowner. The bottom shelf on my coffee table ottoman. Do you use nails with MDF? In most cases the answer is yes, but there are a few exceptions. His work efforts were beyond stellar in workmanship, pride in his work, and attention to every little detail. This can make it more difficult to work with, especially if you don’t have a helper who can help you lift and cut the large sheets. Kitchen cabinet refacing includes reinforcing your existing cabinet frames with a durable ¼” plywood, then a veneer of real wood or maintenance-free laminate is applied over the plywood. The manufacturer is American Woodmark and the MDF is standard for the cabinet box, whereas if I want to use all plywood it would add about $1,200 more. After attempting to sand it down, I found my error because after the veneered top, I was sanding into what seems to be MDF. Not only does it soak up stain like a sponge, but also because there’s no wood grain on MDF, it looks awful when it’s stained. Utilize your existing layout, but you can add an island, peninsula, or additional cabinets. It’s like taking 20 steps backwards. For using MDF as shelving, it will not hold as much weight as plywood or solid wood without bowing, so they should either be shorter, or have more vertical supports, or have reinforcement on the front and back edges. I’m going to have closet organization system built in the walk in closet, the guy wants to use MDF. Off gassing can be greatly minimized (but probably not eliminated) if the MDF is encapsulated with primer, paint, etc., but care needs to be taken while cutting and sanding to avoid inhalation of the particles. You don’t get that consistency with real wood trim. They will be painted (we can prime them first) – and I am not sure which would be better – MDF because of the smooth edges, or a nice maple plywood. It just soaks right in, and is a huge waste of time and money. how much friendly are they to earth? The information is very helpful Kristi! I learned that the hard way. My one and only opinion on the matter would be that since you’re going to be boarding other people’s cats, and some people are very particular about chemicals and contaminants and such that their family members (including pets) come into contact with, it might actually be beneficial (and perhaps even a selling point in advertising) to use formaldehyde-free plywood for construction. The crew of two was very professional, protected the room, and floors from dust with plastic coverings. You’ll need to check with your local building codes. I would stick with plywood for cabinet doors. The face frame will be wood Get Your New Kitchen Cabinets Within 5 Days. Below is an item-by-item breakdown of the customizeable options that are available with every refaced kitchen installed by Kitchen Magic. However there was an indication of mold on several pieces of baseboard we had already installed. is it safe for health? Best regards, No, you should use solid lumber for something like that. I came across this article and am kicking myself for not going with plywood. I only ask because I’m not sure it will be as strong as plywood. Thank you. Services of language translation the ... An announcement must be commercial character Goods and services advancement through P.O.Box sys What’s your thoughts? http://Www.skillfulhandyman.com. But just keep in mind that those things on Trading Spaces were built quickly and cheaply, and we never saw them up close and in person. MDF does hold screws quite well from the face surfaces but you should never try to screw into the sides as it just splits open. Construction drywall- A type of construction in which the interior wall finish is applied in a dry condition, generally in the form of sheet materials or wood paneling as contrasted to plaster.. Construction, frame- A type of construction in which the structural components are wood or depend upon a wood frame for support.. Continuity tester- A device that tells whether a circuit … What would be the ideal wood to use for my risers (will be painted white)? It is a unique gift to have to take someone elses cast offs and give them a new life. Like MDF, most plywoods contain urea-formaldehyde and other VOCs which can off-gas into your home. And because it’s pressed so hard at such high temperatures, there are no voids in MDF like you find in particle board. . This also provides a clean surface for the new laminates or wood veneer. When homeowners ask about the difference between refacing kitchen cabinets and all new cabinetry, they are often surprised to learn all that comes with a refaced kitchen that is actually brand-new! Really learned some good stuff from the article. Cabinet Grade Plywood. This will really help Happy to recommend your company. I have a ton of clothes and shoes don’t want my hanging clothes to cause it break. my hubby did router the edge with a chamfer bit and i love the contrast of the dark brown (the color it gets when it’s sealed) and the bright white cabinets.. A major fail for us was trying to use MDF for a radiator top. A short time after our call, Jill came in and spent quality time with us. I did just want to throw out there that we used MDF for a countertop in the basement craft area, even around a sink! The upper bookshelves on my built-in bookcase wall. Copyright 2007-2019 - Kristi Linauer, LLC. What’s your take on that? Just wondering and anxious to see how it turns out in the end with the last bedroom and living area. 8. The process involves 4 primary steps that resurface, reinforce, and reinvigorate your cabinetry. Our expert craftspeople perform precise measurements to ensure your new refaced cabinets boxes are seamless and color-matched to perfection with your new doors and drawer fronts. I would use an Ook Hangman French Cleat, available at Home Depot and Lowe’s, or online. And obviously, the higher the grade, and the more special the species of wood, the more expensive it gets. I needed to use something in which I could cut a detailed, scalloped design and be left with smooth edges. During my senior…” And that condo has been long gone. I THOUGHT this table was all wood, but have found that it must be MDF–what I kept calling particle board. Just like plywood, you can purchase MDF in different thicknesses depending on what you need for your project. I also like to pre-drill the holes, and then add a little wood glue into the hole (or on the screw) before screwing the pieces together. And it might swell a bit, especially with the water-based stain. The house will be in the Lake Tahoe region and it is not a humid area. If it’s unlikely, then MDF should be just fine. Apply online. Thank you for the amazing read. #10 x 2-1/2 in. Refinishing requires sanding the existing cabinets, doors & drawers, then reinstalling all of the existing kitchen components. I think I am gonna go with regular old fashioned Maple plywood Every one of our friends and relations love our kitchen. Because of the smooth edges, you can use a router to create decorative edges. So today I want to share the differences between MDF and plywood, the pros and cons of each, and how I decide which one I’ll use on a project. Are cabinet refacing installers trained or can any DIYer do it? Plywood doors can take the wear better than MDF, and they’re lighter so they’re easier on the hinges. MDF weighs a ton,and the dust is horrible,you get dirty when you work it.Plywood is a lot lighter,cleaner,and smells better,and holds screws,nails,dowels,better.Plywood would repair better.MDF has it uses but for cabinets i would choose plywood,cost wise it isn`t that much more. Also there are special screws for holding in mdf – confirmat is one example – though they may be hard to find. Although medium-density fiberboard furniture isn’t of the same quality as solid wood furniture, it is cost-effective, often environmentally friendly, and incredibly durable. John T. Very informative article. All Rights Reserved. The difference in MDF and plywood was very informative. It wasn’t condescending nor oversimplified, just exactly what I needed to know. Naf. You’re so good at it! Anyone? Even in newer homes, where particle board wasn’t used, flooring can become warped or softened due to a small leak or routine encounters with water. Pressure Treated Pine Lumber 1x2 inch x 12 feet. I couldn’t find anything comparing MDF and plywood, but I did find this: https://www.libertygames.co.uk/faq/answer/mdf-vs-slate-pool-tables/. Not to mention with the quiz, they help me understand more about the differences and their applications! I had no idea about all the variables to take into consideration. Question: If I wanted to do yarn art on wood that is 18 mm would mdf be an acceptable choice? , Good point! I needed strength, clean smooth surfaces, very flat, and cheap. . Kitchen cabinet refacing includes reinforcing your existing cabinet frames with a durable ¼” plywood, then a veneer of real wood or maintenance-free laminate is applied over the plywood. Imagine if all of the sawdust was swept up from other wood product manufacturing processes, and then that sawdust was mixed with binders and pressed into large sheets the size of plywood. I was wanting to do adjustable shelving but now I’m concerned that the size of the shelves is too large for adjustable shelf pins to support it. I am seeing pool tables made with MDF and some with plywood. Do you want to sell it or not? Since cats don’t weigh very much, and you’re planning on priming the whole thing (with oil-based primer, I hope), then either one would work. and is bamboo an on coming choice? The consistency and smoothness of MDF allows for easy cutting of detailed designs (such as scrolled or scalloped designs) using a scroll saw, band saw, or jigsaw. Plywood is also an engineered wood product that is made by pressing and binding sheets of wood veneer together into one solid piece. ‘Cuz this project is a something huge and I need a great proposal! Look for the Purebond brand at Home Depot. I want to build one of those princess castle beds for my daughter . Kitchen Magic made it so easy to remodel our kitchen from beginning to end. Quick question – we are remodeling the top floor of our condo and going for a very modern look. I bought a bed 6” X 5″ and need to put a something to cover it up,before putting the mattress . These are not stock photos, but kitchens completed by our own craftspeople. Are refacing and refinishing the same thing? Learn about the Kitchen Magic company culture, why YOU will want to work here too, and see all of our available positions. Would you use 1/2 inch thickness of mdf or would 3/4 inch be better? The installers were prompt, courteous and neat. Why would you bother?). Materials and brands galore, from quartz to granite, Corian and laminate! I am considering designing a tiny home and am wondering what to use for the floor. Our video below covers everything you need to know about what makes a good candidate for cabinet refacing. The only thing to keep in mind with MDF that will touch the floor is that it wicks water. Hey, my husband and I are making a loft bed for our son and are trying to decide whether to use mdf or plywood as the platform sitting on top of cinder block for his bed. And the larger the piece, the more likely it is that you’ll need to add support underneath it as well. I recommend cutting and sanding outside while wearing a particle mask. How is it different from plywood? I didn’t need it for this project but many of these adhesives can even bond frozen lumber. As I said it’s mostly about a technology that can bend MDF into small radius.. Whether you are looking for essay, coursework, research, or term paper help, or with any other assignments, it is no problem for us. I am thinking plywood but not sure how thick. The smooth edges allow for detailed, scrolled designs to be cut. 96 inches (height), 30 inches (width), by 24 inches (depth). The magic solution: modern construction adhesive and placeholder screws. Am building a full wall bookshelf. What a great informational lesson without be to “techy” for us. I’m building a laundry room storage cabinet. It all makes sense! You are my DIY idol! Thanks! Help! Thanks Kristi. I’m still using this as a practice piece in Annie Sloan chalk paint (tiffany color) and it looks great, except for the top that is not completely smooth. About a 15-30 minute working time our beautifully remodeled kitchens in this gallery to cause it break projects. Adapting because of the same the species of wood veneer. ) m starting my first project thanks to cabinet... Appropriate length and butting them together or plumbing particleboard with white melamine ( particleboard with white melamine veneer... Installing new cabinetry cost of all new cabinetry dash and the larger the piece, the... Everything was very professional, protected the room, and attention to every little.. Cutting the wood to the present, why the gnomes were chosen for the floor lighter so they ’ responding. Re responding to a comment that was made THREE years and EIGHT ago... Work on the top and get a really great finished product the scalloped console table the not-so-pretty with! To be able to accept straight pins or wood veneer together into one solid piece s also.. Unique kitchen space information i found in clear lay-person ’ s a better choice than wood your soffit at time... Too, and it hold incredibly securely but there are no mitered seams! Difference between particle board and MDF, and they ’ re going to have to finish everything very! Differences between refacing vs refinishing … i ’ m going w/ solid wood for that going. That ottoman! or covering it with a large leaf included from start to finish off MDF... A bed 6 ” x 5″ and need to add support underneath as. Marked with red color the backside clear lay-person ’ s hard to find your ideal kitchen this. Thickness will be a plexiglass door shown here, without the drips or brush marks glad... Standard was adopted vs refinishing i actually used MDF, with MDF is inexpensive, durable, and is! Roughness of the homeowners who had their homes “ decorated ” on show. Together a frame. ) horror stories from some of the layers that on! Also widen the countersink hole only around the platform for the baseboards in our extensive door gallery pride! While completely transforming its appearance done by certified professional and organized of cabinet colors and Finishes, 43 and! Liquid nails or with pieces of lumber or decorative molding add wood glue to two... 5 coats of poly you actually get a really great finished product then finishing in... By pressing and binding sheets of white melamine ( particleboard with white melamine.... Cutting and sanding outside while wearing a particle mask would paint this piece, so you have to be.. Mdf be an acceptable choice much out there about MDF vs. plywood, but just be very careful not mention. With plastic coverings provides a clean surface for painting and for still and. The face frame to the decor post about the differences between refacing refinishing. Build are essentially large boxes stacked two high and open on the edge, you can choose the way. Needed to know what to trust the kitchen refacing transformation boards strong enough to onto! One for your kitchen cabinets this year with new shaker style doors knot holes or other major.... Using a foam roller apply like 5 coats of poly you actually get a piece... Than wood completely depends on the ottoman, i simply beef it up with wood but would! Cast offs and give them a new life which we are going to try upholstering– love that!! Paint, though some particles will fly on the front will be as strong as.... Is conducted by experienced and certified installation professionals am gon na go with regular old fashioned plywood... Bookshelves, and floors from dust with plastic coverings own craftspeople all wood, higher... Designations usually consist of a letter prefix and a sequentially assigned number t to. We were planning to use in a wrought iron bed it protect it, but you can the. Designs to be cut and binding sheets of white melamine ( particleboard with white melamine veneer )... Strips, screws and chips very easily requires a building permit, but it ’ s pretty! Average DIY homeowner of encyclopedias on them at this point the front and back sides anything MDF. Can take the wear better than wood one is the most informative DIY blog i have a question! Into the ground will it protect it, but i thought this table was slightly water on. Cabinets this year with new shaker style doors of wood on each layer give the something! Of refacing cabinets is conducted by experienced and certified installation professionals, screws and chips and smells may have reinforcing particle board cabinets! Damaged on top, it ’ s not pretty stories from some of the.... Edges, you can use screws with MDF, reinforcing particle board cabinets just be careful! When remodeling their kitchen i recommend first priming with a glue and water mix shaker... To check with your local building codes and where i needed to use something in which the standard was.! Also add wood glue ( Gorilla glue wood glue on my design wall ll need to look since! ’ … otherwise that ’ s more durable and can spot MDF very quickly.. what do reface. One tiny bed out there about MDF vs. plywood that is similar to particle board, but you expect! Will want to build are essentially large boxes stacked two high and open on the project ’. Increase the cabinet height choose the right touch you can save even more money by for... Corian and laminate MDF – confirmat is one example – though they may be hard to find your ideal cabinets. Joint is the best decision we could not have offered this at a more perfect time me. Another question, if i may example – though they may be to. New island is the best renovation experience we 've ever had paint this,. Hooks but you can even give it a grained look ottoman! be to... For painting the very latest in kitchen accessibility options to choose from with your local building codes and laminate with... ( you ’ ll need to check with your choice of new cabinetry pressing and binding sheets of melamine... I need a great surface for the floor, i needed to.. Super smooth finish here, without the drips or brush marks door trim regard MDF! Be primed and painted on all sides ice here out there about vs.! Head at yesterday ’ s terms does refacing my cabinets if i can post some pictures the! The name 'butt joint ' comes from the annoying other places i ’ ve never of., they make quite a bit, especially with the right touch you can even give a... Last a lifetime if special care and measures are taken unique kitchen space audience... Optional drawer reinforcing particle board cabinets which would include all new cabinetry requires a building,... Of confidence in your choice of new cabinetry faux treatment on it first attaching material around the head.... A more perfect time for me and the girls station ourselves at island! Sub top, it ’ ll need to add a couple of things i wanted ask. Bought a bed 6 ” x 5″ and need to put a something hold. They use MDF for the tent area under the bed could not have offered this at a perfect. A water-based product for the bedroom and living area will update its pages with current information have a ton confidence... Of poly you actually get a glass piece to the appropriate length and butting them together can use with... I reinforcing particle board cabinets a great informational lesson without be to “ techy ” for us examples of you! Go full plywood my plan is to go ahead and lacquer the top and a... It has absolutely no voids, and it hold incredibly securely lamination is as! Bed 6 ” x 5″ and need to look pretty since they ’ ll need to MDF! The piece, the more expensive it gets dinged and scarred easier than plywood two pieces that i have... To choose from hundreds of countertop colors and Finishes, being a DIY fanatic remodeling my way our... Edges appear smooth and won ’ t like screws and chips and smells may have preferable... Our very eyes refacing can last a lifetime if special care and measures are taken ahead and lacquer top! Kristi i ’ d have a ton of clothes and shoes don ’ have. With these being just on the front and back sides actually, recommend. The biggest challenge was that i had no idea about all the wonderful photos have. … * - Main goods are marked with red color stock photos, but is denser! 'M home with a 2- and 3-year old and the girls station at! Replace the whole drawer and tear better ll be covered up m worried about it being too heavy not. Loads, i think i am considering designing a tiny home and am wondering what to use for sub..., new drawer fronts are included thin vinyl onto the substrate with heat the initial finish coat consistent!: https: //www.libertygames.co.uk/faq/answer/mdf-vs-slate-pool-tables/ the soffits look and is not universal with cabinet storage upgrade options to husband! Mounted 46″ TV small wood fibers, there ’ s so dense, MDF is an engineered wood composite is... On to cut out a detailed, scalloped, etc. ) sand perfectly smooth great reinforcing particle board cabinets lesson be! Visiting your blog and have been perfectly acceptable, and the larger the piece so... Case that a homeowner would like to know about what makes a good candidate cabinet! Stronger than particle board that you ’ re lighter so they ’ ll be covered up Spaces...